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Google committed some their code to gaim about 24 hours ago. It kills off the many fine hours of effort put in by marv, others and myself, into bringing MSN and Yahoo webcams, and other niftyness to gaim 2.x, and invents more work for us. Personally, I'm affronted that a commercial company such as Google would behave like this to the OSS community. Buy off the project lead developer and have him shit on the people who continue to give their time freely.
Sean promised that if I forward ported gaim-vv to gaim HEAD, he'd commit it, and I'd then be granted access to continue working on farsight integration and other niceness. The patch has been in the tracker for one month, and Sean's code specifically ignores it to the point of replacing gaim-vv's generic API calls with specific voice calls. Apparently there were parts of gaim-vv which were too webcam centric. Guess what? It got thrown out and replaced with voice-centric stuff instead of making it media centric -> *THE ENTIRE POINT OF -VV*
Their support guy (Luke) has even says he doesn't care about the stuff we've done. If that's meant to be discouragement, I don't know what is. Particularly when he says if I were in the same room as him, I'd be hurting right now*. For some reason, he seems to think it's OK for him to get upset at being mis-represented, but it's OK when others on the gaim team misrepresent themselves to the OSS community.
Maybe there's some internal $ bonus reward thing for Sean, maybe there's some secret desire to keep developers fixing up his crappy code. Maybe he just enjoys leading enthusiastic hackers up the garden path. Maybe he doesn't believe gaim is a meritocracy. Maybe he hasn't even read his own book. Who knows. I just know I'm jack of it.
My 2c bet. No video for gaim 2.x, voice only on google (if then). Gaim won't be called gaim anymore, and more people leave the project.
*Post edit: Apparently this was not meant as a threat of violence, as en_AU would have it and I took it to be, but as an insult. Language is a very odd thing indeed.
Update: Sean seems to be saying that he asked me if what he was doing would be OK. Just to set the record straight, after pleading with him several times last weekend to let me see what he had before he committed, so I could ensure such a fuck-up wouldn't happen, he flat out refused (because his code just didn't exist) and insisted that the only way I'd do this would be after he commits. He also seems to lay the blame at him choosing linphone over gstreamer at my feet, as (a) gstreamer's not mature (b) it was easier for him to do in linphone. My point, which he still seems to be missing, is that gaim-vv was designed to be architecture neutral.
Update update: I'm posting other entries regarding this in my main blog, not on this article. Feel free to read it. Also, I'd like to thank those who have posted words of support, thanks, encouragement etc. It's nice to know that the gaim-vv and farsight efforts have been appreciated in the community, if not by the developers who block us bringing these to you. It's certainly made me pause and (once again) reconsider my jump. However, I still believe gaim's days are numbered due to (a) poor project lead (b) poor architecture
Update update update: Please don't post any more 'hey, let's fork' comments. That discussion is worthy of a post-doctorate in itself. I'll keep comments open, but will delete any more forking comments. If people decide to ignore my request, I'll close the comments down completely. Please try and be supportive of me, or supportive of gaim, or supportive of sean, or concretely constructive and thoughtful in your comments.
Finally, *please* check the main blog for update articles. I'm growing tired of people not reading the 'state' to which I've moved, particularly as this will lead to more misinformation &(baa); happening.
Sean promised that if I forward ported gaim-vv to gaim HEAD, he'd commit it, and I'd then be granted access to continue working on farsight integration and other niceness. The patch has been in the tracker for one month, and Sean's code specifically ignores it to the point of replacing gaim-vv's generic API calls with specific voice calls. Apparently there were parts of gaim-vv which were too webcam centric. Guess what? It got thrown out and replaced with voice-centric stuff instead of making it media centric -> *THE ENTIRE POINT OF -VV*
Their support guy (Luke) has even says he doesn't care about the stuff we've done. If that's meant to be discouragement, I don't know what is. Particularly when he says if I were in the same room as him, I'd be hurting right now*. For some reason, he seems to think it's OK for him to get upset at being mis-represented, but it's OK when others on the gaim team misrepresent themselves to the OSS community.
Maybe there's some internal $ bonus reward thing for Sean, maybe there's some secret desire to keep developers fixing up his crappy code. Maybe he just enjoys leading enthusiastic hackers up the garden path. Maybe he doesn't believe gaim is a meritocracy. Maybe he hasn't even read his own book. Who knows. I just know I'm jack of it.
My 2c bet. No video for gaim 2.x, voice only on google (if then). Gaim won't be called gaim anymore, and more people leave the project.
*Post edit: Apparently this was not meant as a threat of violence, as en_AU would have it and I took it to be, but as an insult. Language is a very odd thing indeed.
Update: Sean seems to be saying that he asked me if what he was doing would be OK. Just to set the record straight, after pleading with him several times last weekend to let me see what he had before he committed, so I could ensure such a fuck-up wouldn't happen, he flat out refused (because his code just didn't exist) and insisted that the only way I'd do this would be after he commits. He also seems to lay the blame at him choosing linphone over gstreamer at my feet, as (a) gstreamer's not mature (b) it was easier for him to do in linphone. My point, which he still seems to be missing, is that gaim-vv was designed to be architecture neutral.
Update update: I'm posting other entries regarding this in my main blog, not on this article. Feel free to read it. Also, I'd like to thank those who have posted words of support, thanks, encouragement etc. It's nice to know that the gaim-vv and farsight efforts have been appreciated in the community, if not by the developers who block us bringing these to you. It's certainly made me pause and (once again) reconsider my jump. However, I still believe gaim's days are numbered due to (a) poor project lead (b) poor architecture
Update update update: Please don't post any more 'hey, let's fork' comments. That discussion is worthy of a post-doctorate in itself. I'll keep comments open, but will delete any more forking comments. If people decide to ignore my request, I'll close the comments down completely. Please try and be supportive of me, or supportive of gaim, or supportive of sean, or concretely constructive and thoughtful in your comments.
Finally, *please* check the main blog for update articles. I'm growing tired of people not reading the 'state' to which I've moved, particularly as this will lead to more misinformation &(baa); happening.
Typical
Is it worth it anymore?
Re: Typical
My rough guess that somewhere between five and ten years worth of work has been done by others, and they all seem to agree gaim core isn't the best platform for voice and video.. Whilst I agreed with their opinions, I thought it would still be worth the effort. Now I'm 100% convinced that starting a new IM program from the ground up, with proper roadmaps, project leadership etc. is the way to go.
Re: Typical
There is plenty of projects that may enjoy your help
Re: Typical
I love Gaim. I use it daily and I convert people to it all the time. Its great for users. But for developers? Is it just me or is the code absolutely horrid to work on? (i must admit i'm not a fan of gtk in general) It's so messy and no one seems to give a hoot about developer documentation. How about seperation of core logic from the GUI? Not hardly. Pushing away anyone who is willing/able to work in that code seems like a big mistake for the gaim team.
Is starting from the ground up really feasable? There would be a huge duplication of effort in writing protocol code. OSCAR? SNACs anyone? This is where an actual release of libgaim would come in handy. Where is it? Coming with Gaim 2? Perhaps some code of adium would be of use. What does kopete use? I just don't know about this whole ground up thing.
Re: Typical
Re: Typical
Anyway, good luck whichever way you go:-)
Re: Typical
Agreed. Just might be What Is Needed.
One does want an IM client that would not be laden with design decisions from the mid-90s. I'm sorry but I am not even a GAIM user, because I was put off at the time of 0.6x.
Want a tech writer for the design stuff? If so, could I join? (I can work on documenting the UI too but that's much later).
Fork?
Re: Fork?
curiousness
Why not use Kopete?
Re: Why not use Kopete?
Fork it
GPL code... so fork it! Can be recombined later
We can have one Gaim - the google version, and the other GAIM with the video capability in it. They can compete depending on peoples needs.
They are all released under the GPL, so the best of each code can be recombined at a later stage without trouble about under what license each is under.
Hate SEAN
Re: Hate SEAN
Bummer
Re: Bummer
Re: Bummer
GAIM Re-write
Note: recent developments do seem...unfortunate. However it may be a blessing in disguise!
Just to let you knoww
http://devscott.blogspot.com/2005/11/on-g
Fork it (yet again)
On a linguistic note, I also interpreted "if I were in the same room as him, I'd be hurting right now" as a threat of violence. I can only think of interpretations relating to injury. Insults usually don't require physical proximity. (en_US)
*sigh*
- webcam support
- UI improvements
I guess I will have to stay with gaim-vv for quite a while. Again my opinion about what google is doing is getting worse. I really like gaim-vv and completely disagree with not integrating it in gaim-2. This really sux!
Regards,
Christoph Brill aka egore
Already done. Called "Miranda".
And so, now what ?
I don't know from the developper point of view, but according to what I am reading here, seems to be quite horrible, from a poor architecture, a big mess, and apparently, the arrogance of the head.
But now what ? Gaim needs A/V. That is the only step which prevents me from converting other people to use it. With the announce of Gaim 2.0, where Gaim-vv was to be merged, lot of people started waiting for it (look at gnomedesktop.org).
Is it the start of the end for Gaim ? A fork ? Why not if there is enough a real team to lead it. Another IM from scratch, how could it reach the popularity of gaim before months (I mean years) ? Gaim is quite complete now from a user point of view, despite the lake of A/V. And that is the most important point.
Today, we can loose the opensource IM developpement if the great software that is Gaim craks down. It would just be a proof (or at least an argument) to say that opensource model doesn't fit in highly user oriented software (MSN messenger is nothing but eye candie).
So ... what now ?
Bat
Let's move on
I personally feel maybe it is time for us to sit down and talk about a general framework of audio/video conversation on line, maybe white board, or elemental application sharing. Since now it seems like Gaim is doing something not quite in this line, let's do some design and negotiate with the leader once more. And one last time.
After all, I feel sometimes people are too careless in e-chat. Hope this is the case when they say "if you are in the same room, ..."
Why is this happening?
It's no worth to bet on that topic... I really think that it's worthy to fork Gaim-vv from now, make it under your name, and make it better.
Regards.
Re: Why is this happening?
Are you serious?
Ok, lets explain.
1) Google with their own team could be more valuable contributor than anyone else.
2) Google with its own advertisement team could help in popularizing project (that would leads to more independent contributors joining the project)
3) (Just assumption) Guys from Google simply paid to the maintainer :). Everyone loves money, even anonymous from LOR.
Re: Why is this happening?
Re: Why is this happening?
...And you could be sure I will use Miranda.Even if it uses winapi-style coding, it is still best opensource IM client.All other clients are currently lacking some major features.
As for me I'm happy to use Miranda as IM for:
1)ICQ.Quite fair supported.Probably best implementation of all GPLed ones.There is avtars, extra statuses, file xfers and direct clients connnections supported.As well as funny server-list editor, visibility permissions, Unicode, typing notify... and much more.
2)IRC.All basic features are PROPERLY supported.This includes DCC chats\file xfers(both usual and reverse styles), CTCPs, ... in fact this one gets quite popular in Russian IRC.Probably second after mIRC.
3) MSN.All basic features are OK.This means file xfers, avatars, unicode support, typing notify, groupchats... and it does works.
And after all it is best customizable client ever.Due to modular structure it could be customized in thousands of ways.Your client - your way to go.You can notify yourself about what you want in manner you're like.It can be your NT Event Logs and any text logs tracker.Or weather app.Or... umm lots of things here.And you can decide... someone will like lightweight core with basic features.Others will like fully-armored app like swiss knife.Someone will like virtual and\or encrypted databases so you can go with USB flash into public place and still remain yoursels.So where are other apps????The most close thing from *nix forls similar to Miranda I seen was Sim.However it's quite poor compared to miranda.Others are not better.So even when I'm dislike fact that winapi used, I'll still use it as there is no REAL open alternatives to it.Argh, f..k off those who still spents half of life in console apps, there is XXI century, powerful machines and dozen of system resources.So, let's GUI and featured programs to be here :D.And as for me, source of Miranda at least not seems to be something ugly.
Not enough peace to proceed?
It's hard to see how all this should work or mix, but Google is a comercial company that has to hide some internal plans, and Gaim is an open source project grown and supported by detailed public project information...
make love --disable-war
Mike